|
aha. i figured it out:
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:1 64.211.224.163 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.163 dev lo:1
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:2 64.211.224.166 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.166 dev lo:2
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:3 64.211.224.168 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.168 dev lo:3
those netmasks should be 255.255.255.255. i _think_ this has fixed all my
problems. initial tests look much better. i have more to investigate
yet.
-tcl.
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, tc lewis wrote:
>
> so, i have a pretty complex (for me, that is) setup on this one machine
> that acts as a nameserver and mail server and some other stuff and answers
> to a handful of ips. it's also a "real server" behind an lvs director.
> the machine in question is running a modified redhat 6.2 with a 2.2.17ext3
> kernel (stock 2.2.17 + ext3 patches + nfs patches).
>
> let me try to describe this as best i can.
>
> our external network is 64.211.224.160/28. 161 is the router/gateway to
> the rest of the world. 162 is an auth nameserver. 163 is an auth
> nameserver. 164 is the ip used for outgoing connections from behind
> masquerading. 165 is for web traffic. 166 is for incoming mail. and i
> just put 169 in as a standalone machine.
>
> the 164 masquerading server allows the nameserver/mailserver to send
> requests to the outside world:
> MASQ all ------ 192.168.1.21 0.0.0.0/0 n/a
>
> the lvs director basically handles all incoming traffic and forwards it to
> the right place:
> IP Virtual Server version 1.0.0-beta1 (size=4096)
> Prot LocalAddress:Port Scheduler Flags
> -> RemoteAddress:Port Forward Weight ActiveConn InActConn
> TCP 64.211.224.165:443 lc persistent 360
> -> 192.168.1.101:443 Route 1 0 0
> -> 192.168.1.102:443 Route 1 0 0
> UDP 64.211.224.162:53 lc
> -> 192.168.1.11:53 Route 1 0 349
> UDP 64.211.224.163:53 lc
> -> 192.168.1.12:53 Route 1 0 183
> TCP 64.211.224.163:53 lc
> -> 192.168.1.12:53 Route 1 0 0
> TCP 64.211.224.162:53 lc
> -> 192.168.1.11:53 Route 1 0 0
> TCP 64.211.224.166:22 lc
> -> 192.168.1.21:22 Route 1 0 0
> TCP 64.211.224.168:22 lc
> -> 192.168.1.21:22 Route 1 16 0
> TCP 64.211.224.166:25 lc
> -> 192.168.1.21:25 Route 1 0 0
> TCP 64.211.224.165:80 lc
> -> 192.168.1.101:80 Route 1 0 3
> -> 192.168.1.102:80 Route 1 0 1
>
> then there's the "phl" machine which handles dns and mail:
> [root@phl /root]# /sbin/ifconfig
> eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:D0:B7:65:EC:48
> inet addr:192.168.1.21 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> RX packets:24535885 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
> TX packets:24655159 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
> collisions:0 txqueuelen:100
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x2800
>
> eth0:0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:D0:B7:65:EC:48
> inet addr:192.168.1.11 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x2800
>
> eth0:1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:D0:B7:65:EC:48
> inet addr:192.168.1.12 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x2800
>
> eth0:2 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:D0:B7:65:EC:48
> inet addr:192.168.1.13 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x2800
>
> eth0:3 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:D0:B7:65:EC:48
> inet addr:192.168.1.14 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x2800
>
> eth0:4 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:D0:B7:65:EC:48
> inet addr:192.168.1.10 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x2800
>
> eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:40
> inet addr:192.168.2.21 Bcast:192.168.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> RX packets:20102464 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
> TX packets:19892838 errors:6 dropped:0 overruns:3 carrier:6
> collisions:0 txqueuelen:100
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x3000
>
> eth1:0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:40
> inet addr:192.168.2.13 Bcast:192.168.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x3000
>
> eth1:1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:40
> inet addr:192.168.2.14 Bcast:192.168.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x3000
>
> eth1:2 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:40
> inet addr:192.168.2.10 Bcast:192.168.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:11 Base address:0x3000
>
> eth2 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:41
> inet addr:192.168.3.21 Bcast:192.168.3.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> RX packets:74336 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
> TX packets:111705 errors:16 dropped:0 overruns:2 carrier:28
> collisions:0 txqueuelen:100
> Interrupt:10 Base address:0x3080
>
> eth2:0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:41
> inet addr:192.168.3.13 Bcast:192.168.3.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:10 Base address:0x3080
>
> eth2:1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:41
> inet addr:192.168.3.14 Bcast:192.168.3.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:10 Base address:0x3080
>
> eth2:2 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:C0:95:E2:85:41
> inet addr:192.168.3.10 Bcast:192.168.3.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1
> Interrupt:10 Base address:0x3080
>
> lo Link encap:Local Loopback
> inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0
> UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:3924 Metric:1
> RX packets:191349 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
> TX packets:191349 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
> collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
>
> lo:0 Link encap:Local Loopback
> inet addr:64.211.224.162 Mask:255.255.255.240
> UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:3924 Metric:1
>
> lo:1 Link encap:Local Loopback
> inet addr:64.211.224.163 Mask:255.255.255.240
> UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:3924 Metric:1
>
> lo:2 Link encap:Local Loopback
> inet addr:64.211.224.166 Mask:255.255.255.240
> UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:3924 Metric:1
>
> lo:3 Link encap:Local Loopback
> inet addr:64.211.224.168 Mask:255.255.255.240
> UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:3924 Metric:1
>
> [root@phl /root]# /sbin/route -n
> Kernel IP routing table
> Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use
> Iface
> 64.211.224.166 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 lo
> 192.168.2.10 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth1
> 192.168.2.13 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth1
> 192.168.1.21 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth0
> 192.168.3.21 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth2
> 64.211.224.162 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 lo
> 64.211.224.163 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 lo
> 192.168.2.14 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth1
> 192.168.1.11 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth0
> 192.168.1.10 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth0
> 192.168.3.10 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth2
> 192.168.1.13 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth0
> 192.168.3.13 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth2
> 192.168.2.21 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth1
> 192.168.1.12 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth0
> 64.211.224.168 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 lo
> 192.168.1.14 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth0
> 192.168.3.14 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0
> eth2
> 64.211.224.160 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.240 U 0 0 0
> eth0
> 192.168.3.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0
> eth2
> 192.168.2.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0
> eth1
> 192.168.1.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0
> eth0
> 127.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 U 0 0 0 lo
>
> [root@phl /root]# cat /etc/sysctl.conf
> # Disables packet forwarding
> net.ipv4.ip_forward = 1
> # Enables source route verification
> net.ipv4.conf.all.rp_filter = 1
> # Disables automatic defragmentation (needed for masquerading, LVS)
> net.ipv4.ip_always_defrag = 0
> # Disables the magic-sysrq key
> kernel.sysrq = 1
>
> # -tcl.
> net.ipv4.conf.all.send_redirects = 0
> net.ipv4.conf.eth0.send_redirects = 0
> net.ipv4.conf.all.hidden = 1
> net.ipv4.conf.lo.hidden = 1
> #
> [root@phl /root]# tail --lines 30 /etc/rc.d/rc.local
>
> #
> # -tcl.
> #
> # the whole static-routes / network scripts / lo:# / gateway being on a
> # different device than ips on the same network / bl ah blah lah sajdhsd.
> # totally flaky. let's just do it all here.
> #
> /sbin/sysctl -p
> /sbin/route add -net 64.211.224.160 netmask 255.255.255.240 dev eth0
> #/sbin/route add default gw 64.211.224.161 dev eth0
> ##/sbin/arp -s 64.211.224.161 00:30:B6:67:00:40
> /sbin/arp -s 64.211.224.161 00:30:B6:67:00:AA
> #/sbin/ip rule add prio 100 from 192.168.1.0/24 table 100
> #/sbin/ip route add table 100 0/0 via 192.168.1.1 dev eth0
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:0 64.211.224.162 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.162 dev lo:0
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:1 64.211.224.163 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.163 dev lo:1
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:2 64.211.224.166 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.166 dev lo:2
> /sbin/ifconfig lo:3 64.211.224.168 netmask 255.255.255.240 broadcast
> 64.211.224.175 up
> /sbin/route add -host 64.211.224.168 dev lo:3
> #/sbin/ip rule add prio 33000 from 192.168.1.0/24 table 100
> /sbin/ip route add table 100 0/0 via 192.168.1.1 dev eth0
> #/sbin/ip rule add prio 34000 from 0/0 table 200
> /sbin/ip route add table 200 0/0 via 64.211.224.161 dev eth0
> /sbin/ip rule add prio 33000 from 64.211.224.160/28 table 200
> /sbin/ip rule add prio 34000 from 0/0 table 100
> #
>
> [root@phl /root]# ip rule
> 0: from all lookup local
> 32766: from all lookup main
> 32767: from all lookup 253
> 33000: from 64.211.224.160/28 lookup 200
> 34000: from all lookup 100
> [root@phl /root]# ip route
> 64.211.224.166 dev lo scope link src 64.211.224.166
> 192.168.2.10 dev eth1 scope link src 192.168.2.10
> 192.168.2.13 dev eth1 scope link src 192.168.2.13
> 192.168.1.21 dev eth0 scope link
> 192.168.3.21 dev eth2 scope link
> 64.211.224.162 dev lo scope link src 64.211.224.162
> 64.211.224.163 dev lo scope link src 64.211.224.163
> 192.168.2.14 dev eth1 scope link src 192.168.2.14
> 192.168.1.11 dev eth0 scope link src 192.168.1.11
> 192.168.1.10 dev eth0 scope link src 192.168.1.10
> 192.168.3.10 dev eth2 scope link src 192.168.3.10
> 192.168.1.13 dev eth0 scope link src 192.168.1.13
> 192.168.3.13 dev eth2 scope link src 192.168.3.13
> 192.168.2.21 dev eth1 scope link
> 192.168.1.12 dev eth0 scope link src 192.168.1.12
> 64.211.224.168 dev lo scope link src 64.211.224.168
> 192.168.1.14 dev eth0 scope link src 192.168.1.14
> 192.168.3.14 dev eth2 scope link src 192.168.3.14
> 64.211.224.160/28 dev eth0 scope link
> 192.168.3.0/24 dev eth2 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.3.21
> 192.168.2.0/24 dev eth1 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.2.21
> 192.168.1.0/24 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.1.21
> 127.0.0.0/8 dev lo scope link
> [root@phl /root]# ip route list table 100
> default via 192.168.1.1 dev eth0
> [root@phl /root]# ip route list table 200
> default via 64.211.224.161 dev eth0
> [root@phl /root]#
>
>
> the end result of this is that, well, for example, a nameservice query get
> directed through the lvs director to the phl real server, which answers it
> via direct routing. phl can also get to the outside world to deliver mail
> / make dns queries of its own via the masquerading. the policy routing
> says that traffic with a source ip of 64.211.224.160/28 gets sent via
> 64.211.224.161 (direct routing instead of nat/masq), whereas traffic with
> a source ip of anything else should go through 192.168.1.1 and be
> masqueraded. those 192.168.2 and .3 and whatever other networks on there
> can be ignored.
>
> /me breathes.
>
> ok. so all that has been working perfectly for months. the problem is
> that now i added a machine on 64.211.224.169 to do mail serving and stuff
> for our employees and some other stuff. for example, mail to
> @mybiz-inc.com gets delivered to 64.211.224.169, while mail to @mybiz.com
> gets directed to 64.211.224.166 (through the lvs director and to phl).
> the problem is that phl can't send traffic to 64.211.224.169 -- phl seems
> to think that 64.211.224.169 is on its loopback interface. 64.211.224.169
> tries to make nameservice queries for 169.160-175.224.211.64.in-addr.arpa
> and *.mybiz.com to 64.211.224.162 and 64.211.224.163 (the auth nameservers
> for that -- phl handles them), but phl never responds. phl also tries to
> deliver mail to 64.211.224.169, but it can't send traffic there.
>
> check out:
> [root@phl /root]# tcpdump -n host 64.211.224.169 and not port 53 &
> [1] 20668
> User level filter, protocol ALL, datagram packet socket
> tcpdump: listening on all devices
> [root@phl /root]# ping -n -c 5 64.211.224.169
> PING 64.211.224.169 (64.211.224.169) from 64.211.224.169 : 56(84) bytes of
> data.
> 14:04:36.653475 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:36.653475 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:36.653506 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 14:04:36.653506 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 64 bytes from 64.211.224.169: icmp_seq=0 ttl=255 time=63 usec
> 14:04:37.649412 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:37.649412 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:37.649430 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 14:04:37.649430 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 64 bytes from 64.211.224.169: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=34 usec
> 14:04:38.649446 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:38.649446 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:38.649462 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 14:04:38.649462 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 64 bytes from 64.211.224.169: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=28 usec
> 14:04:39.649495 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:39.649495 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:39.649516 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 14:04:39.649516 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 64 bytes from 64.211.224.169: icmp_seq=3 ttl=255 time=37 usec
> 14:04:40.649527 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:40.649527 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo request
> 14:04:40.649545 lo > 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 14:04:40.649545 lo < 64.211.224.169 > 64.211.224.169: icmp: echo reply
> 64 bytes from 64.211.224.169: icmp_seq=4 ttl=255 time=31 usec
>
> --- 64.211.224.169 ping statistics ---
> 5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0% packet loss
> round-trip min/avg/max/mdev = 0.028/0.038/0.063/0.014 ms
> [root@phl /root]# fg
> tcpdump -n host 64.211.224.169 and not port 53
>
> 158 packets received by filter
> [root@phl /root]#
>
>
> when 169 tries to telnet to 166 port 25 (which gets directed to phl):
> [root@phl /root]# tcpdump -n host 64.211.224.169 and not port 53
> User level filter, protocol ALL, datagram packet socket
> tcpdump: listening on all devices
> 14:05:20.460200 eth0 B arp who-has 64.211.224.169 tell 64.211.224.162
> 14:05:50.883915 eth0 B arp who-has 64.211.224.166 tell 64.211.224.169
> 14:05:50.884155 eth0 < 64.211.224.169.1058 > 64.211.224.166.smtp: S
> 4151665104:4151665104(0) win 32120 <mss 1460,sackOK,timestamp 25658644
> 0,nop,wscale 0> (DF)
> 14:05:53.879424 eth0 < 64.211.224.169.1058 > 64.211.224.166.smtp: S
> 4151665104:4151665104(0) win 32120 <mss 1460,sackOK,timestamp 25658944
> 0,nop,wscale 0> (DF)
>
> 725 packets received by filter
>
> no response is ever sent.
>
>
> when phl tries to send mail to mybiz-inc.com:
> [root@phl /root]# dnsmx mybiz-inc.com
> 0 mail.mybiz-inc.com
> [root@phl /root]# dnsip mail.mybiz-inc.com
> 64.211.224.169
> [root@phl /root]# telnet 64.211.224.169 25
> Trying 64.211.224.169...
> Connected to inc.mybiz.com (64.211.224.169).
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 220 phl.usa.mybiz ESMTP
> ^]q
>
> Connection closed.
> [root@phl /root]#
>
> 14:07:39.001323 lo > 64.211.224.169.1549 > 64.211.224.169.smtp: S
> 4291120419:4291120419(0) win 31072 <mss 3884,sackOK,timestamp 441773751
> 0,nop,wscale 0> (DF)
> 14:07:39.001323 lo < 64.211.224.169.1549 > 64.211.224.169.smtp: S
> 4291120419:4291120419(0) win 31072 <mss 3884,sackOK,timestamp 441773751
> 0,nop,wscale 0> (DF)
> 14:07:39.001367 lo > 64.211.224.169.smtp > 64.211.224.169.1549: S
> 200723:200723(0) ack 4291120420 win 31072 <mss 3884,sackOK,timestamp
> 441773751 441773751,nop,wscale 0> (DF)
> 14:07:39.001367 lo < 64.211.224.169.smtp > 64.211.224.169.1549: S
> 200723:200723(0) ack 4291120420 win 31072 <mss 3884,sackOK,timestamp
> 441773751 441773751,nop,wscale 0> (DF)
> 14:07:39.001390 lo > 64.211.224.169.1549 > 64.211.224.169.smtp: . 1:1(0)
> ack 1 win 31072 <nop,nop,timestamp 441773751 441773751> (DF)
> 14:07:39.001390 lo < 64.211.224.169.1549 > 64.211.224.169.smtp: . 1:1(0)
> ack 1 win 31072 <nop,nop,timestamp 441773751 441773751> (DF)
> 14:07:39.007531 lo > 64.211.224.169.smtp > 64.211.224.169.1549: P
> 1:26(25) ack 1 win 31072 <nop,nop,timestamp 441773752 441773751> (DF)
> 14:07:39.007531 lo < 64.211.224.169.smtp > 64.211.224.169.1549: P
> 1:26(25) ack 1 win 31072 <nop,nop,timestamp 441773752 441773751> (DF)
> 14:07:39.007570 lo > 64.211.224.169.1549 > 64.211.224.169.smtp: . 1:1(0)
> ack 26 win 31047 <nop,nop,timestamp 441773752 441773752> (DF)
> 14:07:39.007570 lo < 64.211.224.169.1549 > 64.211.224.169.smtp: . 1:1(0)
> ack 26 win 31047 <nop,nop,timestamp 441773752 441773752> (DF)
> Connected to inc.mybiz.com (64.211.224.169).
>
>
> it tries to send to itself.
>
> does anyone have any idea why phl would think 64.211.224.169 is on its lo?
> it seems to think that for all of 64.211.224.160/28. if i telnet to port
> 25 on any ip in that range, phl directs the request to itself on lo just
> like 169.
>
> anyone even understand this? heh. i'm seriously confused myself.
>
> i'd love to hear any ideas.
>
> -tcl.
>
>
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